With your wide experience both in the Department of Direct Taxes, Government of India, as a Tax Advisor to the Government of Ethiopia and also as our Chief Election Commissioner, what do you feel about corruption in high places?

Well, fighting corruption in high places is indeed a very challenging task in most of the emerging democracies. Abraham Lincoln said Democracy is a government of the people for the people and by people, on the other hand Oscar Wells said that the democracy is bludgeoning with the people by the people for the people,  there are two distinct views – democracy can succeed especially in a country which is just developing. Of the new emerging economies and democracies, corruption is bound to be there because democracy gives certain amount of freedom – freedom of expression, freedom of media and freedom of speech.

There is a certain amount of inbuilt possibilities of corruption because it is very difficult to establish in the court of law corrupt practices, and in a democracy the number of elected representatives is large, whereas in a dictatorship or in a limited monarchy the number of legislatures or elected representative is less. So in a parliamentary system of democracy that we have – there are inbuilt deficiencies, added to that is the colonial system of governance we have, where the administrators do not have much of the feel and the pulse of the people. So they are not sensitized to the needs of the public; in spite of the fact, that our constitution provides for directive principles of the state policies and that our preamble  for standing for equality, just social justice and, … so on. The colonial system of administration still continues in spite of many changes and the character of the elected representatives - corruption thrives. Now the question is whether it can be checked by systemic changes which can be brought about to improve at least the quality of governance and to prevent corruption. It is very difficult to eliminate corruption completely, but if we provide less opportunity for corruption, corruption cannot thrive.

The first important requirement for fighting corruption is education of the people. Illiteracy should be avoided. Second is the vigilance of the people. People should report inefficiencies, negligence and indifference of the administrators, then, the court of law has also to play a very important role in deciding cases relating to corruption. Very often, if we insist on a high degree of evidence, there are problems in proving it in a court of law. And sometimes many people get away in spite of the fact that they are corrupt. The final point is about the judiciary - If the rule of law can be a enforceable at lower levels (lower courts) and if the government also streamlines procedures, corruption can be reduced to a substantial extent. Unfortunately, in India since independence the middle men have occupied more important roles. Rules and procedures seem to be given more importance than the purpose of the legislation and the rules. And added to that, is the fact that our legislatures are really not sensitive to the people’s needs. Those many people who become members of the legislatures are not properly qualified, they are not properly educated and they are not having high system of values. Most of them want to be rich in a quick short time and that’s the problem. Any how, some changes have taken place some more changes are required. Ultimately what is required is good character of leaders and further,  people have to be vigilant, when they have to elect the right person.

Comparing India with Ethiopia, what do you feel is the difference in the economic planning and foreign direct investments?

Ethiopia and India cannot be compared, strictly. India is a large country with a large population, and it was colonized for a long time by Britain. Earlier there were lots of invaders coming into India and ruling India. Whereas,  Ethiopia is supposed to be one of those African countries which was not colonized at all. Italy tried to conquer, but they could not succeed. But as far as the economy is concerned, I think India is totally different from Ethiopia. India is highly advanced, we have a good scientific man power, technological man power, we have had a good record of economical development through initially after independence we did not have a high record of growth. We had good growth in literacy, we had good growth in improving health conditions and we have also improved education in various rural areas. Planning in India has been successful to a limited extent. I cannot say that planning has been totally successful because we saw recently 60 thousand crores of farm loans were waived – what are the reasons behind it? We have neglected our agriculture. In spite of that fact we are pumping in money, it has not reached the people concerned.

Our demand has not been properly rationalized and there has been haphazard planning in this country. In some areas there is good development, and in some areas of the country there is poor development, particularly north eastern states UP, Bihar will find economical development lower. Whereas, in some of the southern states Gujarat, Maharashtra, economic development is of better quality. In Ethiopia, unfortunately they have not had much of a planning and they have not had much resources to improve the quality. Private sectors have a very little role to play in Ethiopia and they have not been encouraged. Private sectors are developed in a considerable manner in India. Thanks to the reform process initiated in 1991. So it is not comparable. India has done far better, though it could have done much more had it improved its quality of governance, had it improved some of its economic policies,  particularly… in the industrial policies. The labour policies also required lot of changes. Our administrative reforms in certain areas need to be done immediately. Judicial delays have to be avoided. So, on the whole, India has though done much better than Ethiopia. India could have done much more, if only we had been more effective and vigilant.

What do you feel about the Indian economy? Do you think our economy is linked to that of the United States?

As I mentioned, since 1947, we have had number of five year plans, though an attempt had been made to improve on the economic development for the whole country. There has been a lop-sided development. Some areas are developed very well, some others have not done and the regional disparities are becoming more and more pronounced. Our development in infrastructure has been rather slow particularly on the power, road and highways etc. needs to be improved a lot. Though there has been a significant improvement in the last few years, I think our economic approach and policies need to be fine tuned to improve the rate of growth faster.

Now the US is entirely different as we know, first of all politically they are different because they have presidential system of government. Economically the country has done very well. The industrial power, but then they are going to a recession now, and because of the recession, they have problem relating to employment etc. the industrial growth is also affected. In India, fortunately we have a large huge domestic market, so in spite of external shocks of the US economy  recession India can do well, if the domestic economy, domestic markets can be properly attended to and if appropriate measures are taken I think we need not be so much affected by the recession of the US and we could do much better economically.

You have been the Chief Election Commissioner, how do you think we can eliminate criminals from becoming Members of Legislatures and Parliament?

As far as criminalization of politics in India, it is unfortunate, that in the last few years the electoral system as it exists now permits large number of criminals getting into the legislature that’s because we can disqualify a person (a criminal) only if he is convicted in the court of law. Since our judicial procedure is so slow that even if a person of a criminal nature is prosecuted, it takes 10 years to get some kind of a conviction with the result, during this period there are lot of people who are not prosecuted in the court of law, they are able to succeed in getting elected. With costly elections becoming the order of the day, lot of money is required, lot of muscle power is required for the political parties to become dominant in their areas. So they have been seeking the help of men of questionable character, they are also seeking the help of monied people who are providing them with money which is not accounted for, the resultant criminalization of politics becomes very easy. We, the Election Commission have been suggesting number of measures to check this tendency of increased money power and muscle power. The criminals particularly in some states are playing a very important role, because they are able to muster lot of voters support because of the fear, because of the money power that they enjoy. So we have suggested specifically that a person who has been prosecuted in a court of law, if he has been charged by the court with a prima-facie charge, the charge sheet has been provided in respect of offences punishable, with 5 years and above and are serious offences, such persons when once the charge sheet is framed should be disqualified from contesting the elections. Unfortunately this recommendation has not been accepted by the governments so far, they have expressed number of reasons why it is not been accepted because they say frivolous complaints will be filed in the court, the court will frame charges and some good politicians who deserve to be elected will get disqualified. I do not agree with this apprehension and we have in any case, the Election Commission has suggested certain conditions in respect of disproposal  so that there cannot be any misuse of these suggestions. Yet the political parties, most of them do not seem to be serious about bringing about change to preventing the criminals from entering the legislature. So, we have to live with this present trend unless an important change is brought about in the representation of the people’s act to prevent such people from contesting the elections.

Do you think that raising the age of the voter could bring in maturity, thereby creating a better legislature, by electing worthy members?

I don’t really agree with this because in most of the countries the current trend is to give voting right from the 18th year. We also initially gave voting right for persons above 21st year. Now we have reduced it to18, this was done during Rajiv Gandhi’s Prime Ministership. And I wouldn’t find fault with that because after all when 18 is the age of majority. There is no harm in giving and in any case the future belongs to the younger generations. But, the problem is whether the people are educated enough properly to exercise their vote. We may have a reasonably good literacy rate in urban areas, but in rural areas there are not many who are well educated, especially in some states. So what is important is to improve the quality of education especially in remote and rural areas- in certain states were many of them do not have a literacy record at all, rather than raising the age of voting from 18 to what ever the age.

Do you think it is possible to furnish every Indian citizen a voter identification card? In the tribal areas, can there be impersonation introducing such cards?

The voter identification card was introduced from 1991 onwards though it has had a checked history. By and large now at least more than 60% to 70% of the Indian voters have been provided with some kind of an identity card. We have not been able to cover 100% in many places, but in some states we have even crossed 80%. Pondicherry is one state where and even Kerala, we have been able to cover more than 90% of the voters with the voter identity card. But this cannot be said in respect of other states, though every attempt is being made by the Election Commission with the voter identity card. Hopefully voter identity card with the photo electoral role where the voter’s photo will also be there will be a reality in all the constituencies, 100% very soon. But, the identity card itself now - there is a debate going on whether- we should have a biometric card or should have a simple card that we now have. Of course, I would suggest that with the biometric card identification is even better to prevent any impersonation and so on. But even the existing system has improved a lot. It has checked impersonation to a large extent but until it is 100% there is bound to be some misuse of those who have not been given proper identification card. The Election Commission is doing its best to cover. I think it must have now gone beyond 70% in most of the states and hopefully very soon they will be able to covert 100% of the population with good voter identity card.

Is it ever possible to induce the maximum number of people to vote? How do you think the uninterested could be induced to participate in elections to legislatures?

Well in our country, the average voter’s participation is around 60% in some states it’s about 80% in some states it’s less than 60%, so the average is 60%. But while some of the states like Himachal Pradesh, Rajasthan and Maharashtra, even some southern states the voter percentage has been very good. How do we attract voter to come and elect? Because some of them don’t want to come to vote because they are indifferent, they think that their single vote may not make much of the difference. But all over the world an attempt is being made to make voter participation large in number. Some states its compulsory voting. In India we cannot have compulsory voting to improve because it is very difficult to implement even though it is desirable and justifiable in theory. So, we can provide incentives to the tax payers so that they come and exercise their vote. I mean incentives are provided to the voting population if they come and exercise their vote. We have introduced the electronic polling system to avoid delays, because, the conventional manual system takes lot of time for the persons to come and exercise their vote. We have enabled to cut short the time, we have enabled to open number of voting booths (polling stations) to  enable the voter not to wait for too long in the polling station. All the same, many incentives can be thought off. In fact in some US states, they even give a lottery prize encouraging people to come and vote so that one of them could get a win a lottery prize. Then there are certain countries where certain advance information voter package is given so that they can read, take interest in the voter and in the election and come and exercise their vote. So numbers of new innovations are possible and in the government the Election Commission should seriously consider some of these incentives and also provide voter education well in advance before the election. We have been doing it in the Election Commission for a  number of years and our election procedures have been lauded by many people, both in India and abroad, the foreign  media, appreciated our conducting elections in difficult circumstances, in constratints like Jammu & Kashmir where threat of bullets is always there. But unfortunately over a period of time, things are improving in our country with proper facilities and with proper incentives. I’m sure that the voters percentage will increase in the years to come and the facilities that they are provided by the Election Commission attracting the voters to come and exercise their vote. It is very difficult to implement compulsory voting in India. We are also suggesting another method by which if a voter is not happy with any of the candidates they could indicate in the Electronic voting machine that they are not interested in voting to any of the person. Although there is a procedure existing even now under rule “49 O” that a person can come and record, saying that he doesn’t want to vote for anybody and at the same time ensure that his vote is not misused by registering his presence. But the negative vote system has also been tried in some countries and I hope negative vote system will also result in the parties thinking of putting a good candidate. Our electoral system needs to be changed. If the system can be changed, so that the candidate nominated by the parties are of better standard and better quality,  I am sure that the voter participation will also increase. In any case it is a multi-faceted approach that should be followed by the Election Commission to improve the voter percentage, our voter participation in any election